I received an email this morning on my "drab" email. It is from an elderly former attorney with whom I used to work.
What follows is the dialogue. I admit my argument is rather disjointed here and there, but i get my point across.
Note: I am in no way suggesting that this person is representative of the entire right wing, nor of every Christian, nor every lawyer. It's him. And, I believe many people like him. Like the radical right, of which he is absolutely and unapologetically a part.
*******************************
The text of the initial email:
"California doctors can now surgically alter boys to make them look more like girls, but not give therapy or counselling to help them act more like boys.
The new American Way."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/california-enacts-nations-first-law-banning-gay-teen-conversion-psychotherapy/2012/10/01/082d933c-0b84-11e2-97a7-45c05ef136b2_story.html?wpisrc=emailtoafriend
My reply:
"That's because one of the therapies works and the other leads to suicide. Pretty simple"
His reply:
"(birth name), fair response, and in fairness, not wholly unexpected.
I wonder if you might do me a favor. I'm doing a piece for Penn Law Review on "legislating morality," I would like to quote your source(s) for larger percentage of suicides in "gay to straight therapy" than in transgender surgery,or with no therapy, or whatever your precise figures may be in this general context.
I expect there will be increasing legislation and court decisions going both ways on these questions, and I'd like to have the study you refer to.
I promise to credit you and your sources.
Thanks again for getting back, and for those citations."
My NEXT reply:
"I will get them, as they are readily available. For the transgender one, it's the NCTE, and for the other, it's a google search. The topic was big during Bachmann's run as her gay husband runs these clinics. Quoting me isn't necessary as I am not an expert, but quote the experts in the citations I will send.
Did you expect THAT?
As to "legislating morality," I hope you intend to discuss the abortion issue as well, as that issue is exactly the same discussion. Or doesn't that fit your thesis?"
He didn't answer that one.
My following reply, in full:
'Hi!
You wrote:
"(birth name), fair response, and in fairness, not wholly unexpected.
I wonder if you might do me a favor. I'm doing a piece for Penn Law Review on "legislating morality," I would like to quote your source(s) for larger percentage of suicides in "gay to straight therapy" than in transgender surgery,or with no therapy, or whatever your precise figures may be in this general context.
I expect there will be increasing legislation and court decisions going both ways on these questions, and I'd like to have the study you refer to.
I promise to credit you and your sources.
Thanks again for getting back, and for those citations."
Ok, first off, you argument is apples and oranges. Homosexuality (Hereafter "H") is about sexuality, and Transgenderism (TG) is about gender. Think of one affecting the crotch, and the other affecting the brain. One is NOT the other (despite some women's arguments to the contrary).
That invalidates your initial thesis immediately.
THAT SAID, let’s look at some numbers, shall we? All bits are cited. My comments hereafter in italics. Any numbers in italics are my calculations and as such are estimates and not to be considered absolute. With me so far?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1447240/
“Twenty-one percent had made a suicide plan; 12% had attempted suicide (almost half of those 12% were multiple attempters). Most who attempted suicide made their first attempt before age 25. Although prevalence of parasuicide (i.e., attempted suicide) has remained constant across birth cohorts, mean age at initial attempts has declined.
Conclusions. MSM are at elevated risk for suicide attempts, with such risk clustered earlier in life. Some risk factors were specific to being gay or bisexual in a hostile environment.”
http://www.fiercegoodbye.com/?s=2
"• On an average day, one person ends their life every 17 minutes.
• Lesbians are two times more likely to attempt suicide than straight women.
• Attempts by gay and lesbian youth account for up to 30% of all completed suicides.
• Gay teens are 3 times more likely to attempt suicide than their heterosexual peers.
• Gay youth are 4 times more likely to make a suicide attempt requiring medical attention.
• Gay men are six times more likely to attempt suicide than their heterosexual peers.
91 suicides a day in the US"
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/suicide-in-the-us-statistics-and-prevention/index.shtml
General baseline suicide statistics
http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/suicide-datasheet-a.PDF
"Among young adults ages 15 to 24 years old, there are approximately 100-200 attempts for every completed suicide.3
Among adults ages 65 years and older, there are approximately four suicide attempts for every completed suicide.
Males take their own lives at nearly four times the rate of females and represent 79.0% of all U.S. suicides
There is one suicide for every 25 attempted suicides"
91 suicides a day in the US (average.) So using data above:
Using stats: 2275 attempts per day
73 of those are male. That’s 1820 attempts
If gay men are 6 times as likely to attempt:
1560 attempts by gay men. 63 successes.
63 of 73 is 86%. Using my (non-scientific) estimate: 86% of suicides on a given day are gay men. That’s the baseline. And doesn’t count Transgender or lesbian.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/10/01/us/california-gay-therapy-ban/index.html
"Earlier this year, psychiatrist Robert L. Spitzer apologized for his 2003 study of reparative therapy, which suggested that it could help gays and lesbians become straight. He said it was deeply flawed."
(citation below)
“The American Psychological Association declared Wednesday that mental health professionals should not tell gay clients they can become straight through therapy or other treatments.
In a resolution adopted by the association's governing council, and in an accompanying report, the association issued its most comprehensive repudiation of so-called reparative therapy, a concept espoused by a small but persistent group of therapists, often allied with religious conservatives, who maintain that gay men and lesbians can change.
No solid evidence exists that such change is likely, says the resolution, adopted by a 125-to-4 vote. The association said some research suggested that efforts to produce change could be harmful, inducing depression and suicidal tendencies.
Instead of seeking such change, the association urged therapists to consider multiple options, which could include celibacy and switching churches, for helping clients live spiritually rewarding lives in instances where their sexual orientation and religious faith conflict.
The association has criticized reparative therapy in the past, but a six-member panel added weight to that position by examining 83 studies on sexual orientation change conducted since 1960. Its report was endorsed by the association's governing council in Toronto, where the association's annual meeting is being held this weekend. [Associated Press, 8/5/09, via The New York Times]”
http://www.hrc.org/resources/entry/the-lies-and-dangers-of-reparative-therapy
“In short, there is clear evidence that reparative therapy does not work, and some significant evidence that it is also harmful to LGBT people.”
http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/therapeutic-response.pdf
APA report in its entirety.
First off, the argument you make is that homosexuality is a mental condition. It isn’t. The APA does not recognize it as such as its causes are BIOLOGICAL in nature.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_therapy
“The World Health Organization's ICD-10, which along with the DSM-IV is widely used internationally, states that "sexual orientation by itself is not to be regarded as a disorder".”
http://new.paho.org/hq/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=6803&Itemid=1926
“Services that purport to "cure" people with non-heterosexual sexual orientation lack medical justification and represent a serious threat to the health and well-being of affected people, the Pan American Health Organization (PAHO) said in a position statement launched on 17 May, the International Day against Homophobia.”
So, while my ACTUAL number estimate may be off, but the data suggests my initial claim still has basis.
Now, for completeness, lets examine TG suicide statistics.
Transgender suicides:
http://transequality.org/PDFs/Executive_Summary.pdf
“staggering 41% of respondents reported attempting suicide
compared to 1.6% of the general population”
http://www.lauras-playground.com/transgender_mortality.htm
“Transgender mortality rates are difficult to estimate because families often don't report that there dead son or daughter was transgender. (emphasis mine) In addition deaths due to illegal hormone use and its complications aren't reported because they don't seek a doctor's help. Common problems are strokes, heart attacks, silicone injections and deep vein thrombosis. There are also thousands of cases of unreported violence leading to death.
Based on conversations with 9 million users and over 2 million emails I'd estimate the total Transgender mortality rate at between 60% to 70% and I'm being conservative here.” (emphasis NOT mine)
So. People are dying. Living people. Simply because they have a stigmatized biological condition. Shall we discuss the "morality" of that?
*********************************
So, there you have it. Sophie fired up at Narrow Mindedness. Who would've thought?
After writing all that, and researching it, I must admit to being a little down. I keep thinking: "what can I do to help?"
My current answer is to keep reaching out to those I can reach, usually at Renaissance.
But there has to be more I can do, within my very limited time (now working 70 hour weeks.)
Any ideas?
What follows is the dialogue. I admit my argument is rather disjointed here and there, but i get my point across.
Note: I am in no way suggesting that this person is representative of the entire right wing, nor of every Christian, nor every lawyer. It's him. And, I believe many people like him. Like the radical right, of which he is absolutely and unapologetically a part.
*******************************
The text of the initial email:
"California doctors can now surgically alter boys to make them look more like girls, but not give therapy or counselling to help them act more like boys.
The new American Way."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/california-enacts-nations-first-law-banning-gay-teen-conversion-psychotherapy/2012/10/01/082d933c-0b84-11e2-97a7-45c05ef136b2_story.html?wpisrc=emailtoafriend
My reply:
"That's because one of the therapies works and the other leads to suicide. Pretty simple"
His reply:
"(birth name), fair response, and in fairness, not wholly unexpected.
I wonder if you might do me a favor. I'm doing a piece for Penn Law Review on "legislating morality," I would like to quote your source(s) for larger percentage of suicides in "gay to straight therapy" than in transgender surgery,or with no therapy, or whatever your precise figures may be in this general context.
I expect there will be increasing legislation and court decisions going both ways on these questions, and I'd like to have the study you refer to.
I promise to credit you and your sources.
Thanks again for getting back, and for those citations."
My NEXT reply:
"I will get them, as they are readily available. For the transgender one, it's the NCTE, and for the other, it's a google search. The topic was big during Bachmann's run as her gay husband runs these clinics. Quoting me isn't necessary as I am not an expert, but quote the experts in the citations I will send.
Did you expect THAT?
As to "legislating morality," I hope you intend to discuss the abortion issue as well, as that issue is exactly the same discussion. Or doesn't that fit your thesis?"
He didn't answer that one.
My following reply, in full:
'Hi!
You wrote:
"(birth name), fair response, and in fairness, not wholly unexpected.
I wonder if you might do me a favor. I'm doing a piece for Penn Law Review on "legislating morality," I would like to quote your source(s) for larger percentage of suicides in "gay to straight therapy" than in transgender surgery,or with no therapy, or whatever your precise figures may be in this general context.
I expect there will be increasing legislation and court decisions going both ways on these questions, and I'd like to have the study you refer to.
I promise to credit you and your sources.
Thanks again for getting back, and for those citations."
Ok, first off, you argument is apples and oranges. Homosexuality (Hereafter "H") is about sexuality, and Transgenderism (TG) is about gender. Think of one affecting the crotch, and the other affecting the brain. One is NOT the other (despite some women's arguments to the contrary).
That invalidates your initial thesis immediately.
THAT SAID, let’s look at some numbers, shall we? All bits are cited. My comments hereafter in italics. Any numbers in italics are my calculations and as such are estimates and not to be considered absolute. With me so far?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1447240/
“Twenty-one percent had made a suicide plan; 12% had attempted suicide (almost half of those 12% were multiple attempters). Most who attempted suicide made their first attempt before age 25. Although prevalence of parasuicide (i.e., attempted suicide) has remained constant across birth cohorts, mean age at initial attempts has declined.
Conclusions. MSM are at elevated risk for suicide attempts, with such risk clustered earlier in life. Some risk factors were specific to being gay or bisexual in a hostile environment.”
http://www.fiercegoodbye.com/?s=2
"• On an average day, one person ends their life every 17 minutes.
• Lesbians are two times more likely to attempt suicide than straight women.
• Attempts by gay and lesbian youth account for up to 30% of all completed suicides.
• Gay teens are 3 times more likely to attempt suicide than their heterosexual peers.
• Gay youth are 4 times more likely to make a suicide attempt requiring medical attention.
• Gay men are six times more likely to attempt suicide than their heterosexual peers.
91 suicides a day in the US"
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/suicide-in-the-us-statistics-and-prevention/index.shtml
General baseline suicide statistics
http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/suicide-datasheet-a.PDF
"Among young adults ages 15 to 24 years old, there are approximately 100-200 attempts for every completed suicide.3
Among adults ages 65 years and older, there are approximately four suicide attempts for every completed suicide.
Males take their own lives at nearly four times the rate of females and represent 79.0% of all U.S. suicides
There is one suicide for every 25 attempted suicides"
91 suicides a day in the US (average.) So using data above:
Using stats: 2275 attempts per day
73 of those are male. That’s 1820 attempts
If gay men are 6 times as likely to attempt:
1560 attempts by gay men. 63 successes.
63 of 73 is 86%. Using my (non-scientific) estimate: 86% of suicides on a given day are gay men. That’s the baseline. And doesn’t count Transgender or lesbian.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/10/01/us/california-gay-therapy-ban/index.html
"Earlier this year, psychiatrist Robert L. Spitzer apologized for his 2003 study of reparative therapy, which suggested that it could help gays and lesbians become straight. He said it was deeply flawed."
(citation below)
“The American Psychological Association declared Wednesday that mental health professionals should not tell gay clients they can become straight through therapy or other treatments.
In a resolution adopted by the association's governing council, and in an accompanying report, the association issued its most comprehensive repudiation of so-called reparative therapy, a concept espoused by a small but persistent group of therapists, often allied with religious conservatives, who maintain that gay men and lesbians can change.
No solid evidence exists that such change is likely, says the resolution, adopted by a 125-to-4 vote. The association said some research suggested that efforts to produce change could be harmful, inducing depression and suicidal tendencies.
Instead of seeking such change, the association urged therapists to consider multiple options, which could include celibacy and switching churches, for helping clients live spiritually rewarding lives in instances where their sexual orientation and religious faith conflict.
The association has criticized reparative therapy in the past, but a six-member panel added weight to that position by examining 83 studies on sexual orientation change conducted since 1960. Its report was endorsed by the association's governing council in Toronto, where the association's annual meeting is being held this weekend. [Associated Press, 8/5/09, via The New York Times]”
http://www.hrc.org/resources/entry/the-lies-and-dangers-of-reparative-therapy
“In short, there is clear evidence that reparative therapy does not work, and some significant evidence that it is also harmful to LGBT people.”
http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/therapeutic-response.pdf
APA report in its entirety.
First off, the argument you make is that homosexuality is a mental condition. It isn’t. The APA does not recognize it as such as its causes are BIOLOGICAL in nature.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_therapy
“The World Health Organization's ICD-10, which along with the DSM-IV is widely used internationally, states that "sexual orientation by itself is not to be regarded as a disorder".”
http://new.paho.org/hq/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=6803&Itemid=1926
“Services that purport to "cure" people with non-heterosexual sexual orientation lack medical justification and represent a serious threat to the health and well-being of affected people, the Pan American Health Organization (PAHO) said in a position statement launched on 17 May, the International Day against Homophobia.”
So, while my ACTUAL number estimate may be off, but the data suggests my initial claim still has basis.
Now, for completeness, lets examine TG suicide statistics.
Transgender suicides:
http://transequality.org/PDFs/Executive_Summary.pdf
“staggering 41% of respondents reported attempting suicide
compared to 1.6% of the general population”
http://www.lauras-playground.com/transgender_mortality.htm
“Transgender mortality rates are difficult to estimate because families often don't report that there dead son or daughter was transgender. (emphasis mine) In addition deaths due to illegal hormone use and its complications aren't reported because they don't seek a doctor's help. Common problems are strokes, heart attacks, silicone injections and deep vein thrombosis. There are also thousands of cases of unreported violence leading to death.
Based on conversations with 9 million users and over 2 million emails I'd estimate the total Transgender mortality rate at between 60% to 70% and I'm being conservative here.” (emphasis NOT mine)
So. People are dying. Living people. Simply because they have a stigmatized biological condition. Shall we discuss the "morality" of that?
*********************************
So, there you have it. Sophie fired up at Narrow Mindedness. Who would've thought?
After writing all that, and researching it, I must admit to being a little down. I keep thinking: "what can I do to help?"
My current answer is to keep reaching out to those I can reach, usually at Renaissance.
But there has to be more I can do, within my very limited time (now working 70 hour weeks.)
Any ideas?
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